I encountered Kristen Arnett’s work quickly after the publication of her debut novel, Largely Useless Issues, once I picked it up in a bookstore. I used to be instantly arrested by its premise: a girl choosing up the mantle of the household taxidermy enterprise after her father’s loss of life. However after studying it, the issues that lingered with me have been the sense of humanity that underpins the awful panorama of the protagonist’s grief and the masterful consideration dedicated to the method of taxidermy itself, which drives the novel into metaphorical areas the place loss of life, the physique, and dissection all tackle resonant that means.

Arnett’s newest novel, Cease Me if You’ve Heard This One (Riverhead, 2025), examines the craft of clowning with related acuity and depth. As its protagonist, Cherry, navigates monetary and private strife as a contract clown in central Florida, she additionally demonstrates devotion to her artwork, breaking down the mechanics of humor and efficiency in each space of her life by incisive, unforgiving self-examination. I spoke to Arnett on Zoom about her analysis course of for the guide, the ability dynamics of queer sexuality, and the emotional value of making artwork.

Debbie Ou: Your new novel contains a clown, and your debut novel is a few taxidermist. Did the analysis course of differ for this guide?

Kristen Arnett: Sure, completely. Every guide requires its personal writing observe, and the identical is true for analysis. For my first novel, Largely Useless Issues, I did plenty of very heavy analysis. I wanted to know the instruments that an individual would use; I used to be studying plenty of outdated manuals. I used to be going into chat boards the place I realized stuff that I wouldn’t have realized studying a handbook or googling issues. Like, “For those who actually wish to get an eye fixed to look proper, you simply use Windex.” That is one thing you solely study from individuals who really do these practices sharing data with one another. So it was plenty of in-depth lurking round, seeing folks discuss, and watching how-to movies.

For this guide, I rapidly realized that the analysis relies on my protagonist, as a result of it’s not about what Kristen is all for. What does Cherry care to study? Cherry is type of a know-it-all about humor and clowning; she’s going to know simply sufficient to get by. So I didn’t wish to know too many sensible info. I hung out watching plenty of movies of clowns performing, as a result of clowning is such a deeply bodily act. I wanted to find out about how a physique falls, how a physique strikes to maximise humor for an viewers. 

I hung out watching plenty of movies of clowns performing, as a result of clowning is such a deeply bodily act.

This one video was very nineties—a man who seems like a youth group pastor is speaking actually significantly in a swimsuit jacket and denims—and he’s speaking about how an individual would slip on a banana peel, speaking it by like how any individual would educate you methods to do a dance transfer. Very severe, very sensible, dry. After which he says, “Okay, now that I’ve talked you thru it, we’ll deliver the clown in.” The clown is available in and performs the act; he simply slips on the banana peel after which leaves. I feel Cease Me if You’ve Heard This One feels extremely bodily as a result of it’s Cherry metaphorically tumbling by the guide. She’s very bodily fumbling by the trajectory of every chapter. The analysis was based mostly within the physique.

Ou: It’s so fascinating to listen to you describe that video, as a result of it jogs my memory that behind each artwork, artists try to interrupt down the method step-by-step. Is there a purpose you’re feeling drawn to put in writing about jobs that lots of people discover peculiar or perhaps a little off-putting?

I’m actually all for something that folks have sturdy opinions about. I’m a Florida author, and other people have plenty of sturdy opinions about Florida.

Arnett: I’m actually all for something that folks have sturdy opinions about. I’m a Florida author, and other people have plenty of sturdy opinions about Florida—individuals who don’t even reside right here or haven’t actually been or, if they’ve, solely as a vacationer. And other people take into consideration these sorts of professions by the lens of vacationers. Folks have plenty of opinions about taxidermy with out ever having carried out it or with out figuring out any details about it. Folks have plenty of opinions about clowns, and a few are very intense, proper? Folks have a really actual concern round clowns, however these folks most likely haven’t interacted with a clown. They’re basing their opinions off popular culture, social media, issues like that. And so I believed, What’s it wish to be making artwork for folks they usually suppose what you make is cheesy or inherently horrifying or not humorous? I feel I’m drawn to characters who’re othered in these methods. What’s the flip aspect of this coin? What’s the factor hiding beneath? That’s what pursuits me in fiction.

Ou: I didn’t take into consideration the truth that clowning and taxidermy are each artistic endeavors which might be maybe not acknowledged or validated by the broader arts neighborhood. Cherry even makes the purpose early on within the novel that many individuals don’t simply suppose clowns are bizarre—folks despise them. After all, she’s additionally a queer girl in Central Florida. She nearly appears to revel within the hostility she faces from different folks. Not too long ago I’ve been desirous about the intimacy of hostility and confrontation, which I discover terrifying since you’re confronted so intensely with different folks’s needs and fears. Is that one thing you have been desirous about as you have been writing the character?

Arnett: I do suppose that since Cherry is considering herself as a performer in each side of her life, she wants to have the ability to pivot for the viewers. She may be all for pushing buttons or envelopes, however she doesn’t wish to get her ass beat on a regular basis, proper? That’s a really actual concern for her. So she thinks, How am I capable of make artwork that doesn’t end in me having violence put upon me? How do I want to talk, act, look? However there are additionally occasions she’s not going to have the ability to de-escalate. I feel Cherry’s the type of character who thinks, That is who I’m, so I simply may get harmed. I’m prepared to be conflict-driven. However regardless that she could be very loud and will be confrontational, she’s not confronting some issues as a result of she’s utilizing humor to deflect what she really wants to speak about—like her relationship together with her mom or her friendship with Darcy, which finally ends up exploding as a result of she doesn’t do what she must do. She’s making a joke as a substitute.

Ou: As regards to intimacy, the guide begins with a scene depicting intercourse between Cherry and a shopper of hers, a mother who has booked her for a birthday-party gig. It feels very transactional, a part of a efficiency she’s placing on as Bunko the Clown. And when she has intercourse with the magician, there’s additionally the same transactional—or at the least conditional—aspect to it. What do you suppose Cherry feels about intimacy? Is she selecting to occupy a world the place intercourse is transactional and intimacy is restricted, or is she trapped there?

Arnett: I feel it’s a query of what folks consider queer intercourse and energy dynamics. The opening of the guide is that this intercourse scene between Cherry, who’s dressed as Bunko, and a mother who has a clown fetish. The mother has employed Cherry to be a performer, however Cherry additionally will get off on the truth that that is an older mother as a result of Cherry has a fetish for older girls. So, they’re each getting one thing out of it. 

The magician chapter in the midst of the guide is the one chapter wherein the POV adjustments. It’s centered on Margot, this mysterious, attractive, a lot older magician. Margot is in management, so Cherry has little or no management. She doesn’t get to the touch within the methods she desires; she doesn’t get to increase the intercourse act. It’s over when the magician desires it to be over. In writing these scenes, I needed to be very particular about how they seemed on the web page, so it could mimic who had the ability within the scenario. As a result of that’s additionally a giant a part of eroticism: who has the ability and who’s giving it up. 

Ou: It makes plenty of sense that you just have been considering extra explicitly about energy, as a result of Cherry looks as if somebody who’s very attuned to that. She’s additionally centered on her relationship together with her artwork, seeming to recommend at occasions that it’s not altogether wholesome. At one level she tells us that “the clown is my id, grasping and impatient and uncaring of the mess it would make in its quest to get off an excellent joke.” This makes me take into consideration the concept that what artwork calls for from its creator is just not restricted to what’s simple to present. When you have been writing about Cherry’s relationship with artwork, have been you additionally desirous about your individual?

Arnett: Sure, I feel this can be a nice query, as a result of a lot of this guide is about what it’s to be an artist and to present every thing to creating artwork. And I feel that’s not restricted to clowning—with writing, as an illustration, how a lot does it devour you? How a lot do you give it? While you make a factor you’re feeling says one thing of significance, how a lot of you is required? I feel that’s true for me, however I feel it’s true for any type of artwork. And I would like this guide to be desirous about capitalism. What does it actually value you to make artwork? What does it value you spiritually? What does it value you by way of intimacy and friendships and household? So sure, I used to be very a lot desirous about writerly observe, however I used to be additionally desirous about each different type of creative observe, like dancers who’ve unusual relationships with meals and their our bodies. We’re all fumbling by, making an attempt to determine the proper steadiness of artwork and lived life.

A lot of this guide is about what it’s to be an artist and to present every thing to creating artwork.

Ou: One other commentary Cherry makes about craft is when she marks a distinction between stand-up and clowning, asserting that stand-up is concerning the “I” somewhat than the “You.” Do you suppose there’s a distinction between artwork that’s and isn’t rooted in id or the presentation of the self?

Arnett: After we make artwork, our fingerprints are on it, proper? Even when we’re writing away from the self, in the end it has to return by us because the conduit. If we take into consideration artwork as against the law scene, if the police present up, they’re going to seek out our fingerprints on it in some capability, it doesn’t matter what we’re making. To deliver the query again to Cherry, this twenty-eight-year-old thinks, “I do know every thing there may be to find out about clowning and humor.” Saying stand-up is concerning the “I” and clowning is concerning the “You”—that’s one small manner of taking a look at how creative observe capabilities. However it may be extrapolated additional. Clowning could be very a lot about studying the room and making an attempt to present the joke that’s going to be proper for that viewers, whereas stand-up is—usually talking—a standardized set that’s honed and practiced, nevertheless it’s carried out to get the maximized chortle from an viewers. This stuff are functioning the identical manner, simply by completely different avenues. I feel that’s relevant to different kinds of creative practices. 

Ou: You’ve been referencing Cherry’s persona lots. I used to be actually all for her as a personality as a result of she appears self-aware at occasions, however there are moments within the novel that point out she has blind spots, too, maybe large ones. For instance, at one level, her mom’s girlfriend accuses her of not listening to her mom’s life. Is Cherry perceiving the world clearly? 

Arnett: That is one thing I very a lot take into consideration once I’m engaged on a novel: issues we all know versus issues we expect we all know. And parent-child dynamics are fascinating, as a result of dad and mom have expectations about how kids will behave, however kids even have intense concepts about who dad and mom have to be or how they’ve failed. You get plenty of data from Cherry all through the guide about precisely who her mother is. So I didn’t need Cherry’s mother to immediately say, “Right here’s the way you didn’t see me appropriately.” I needed an middleman to  say, “You already know, you’re type of self-involved. Your mother has her personal life, too.” 

All people has methods wherein we expect we all know precisely how one thing is and the way this particular person is. However that’s not the opposite particular person’s lived actuality. So anytime I’m writing characters, I really need that to issue into how issues occur. As a result of I do suppose a lot of human revelation is, “Oh, I believed it was this fashion the entire time, however this particular person skilled it a totally completely different manner.” That is probably the most fascinating factor to me.

Ou: Do you suppose writing within the first particular person permits you to discover these limitations of perspective?

Arnett: This novel is an extremely voicey, shut first; it’s plenty of interiority. You’re actually in Cherry’s mind. My second novel, With Enamel, is third particular person, however I’d say it’s an extremely shut third; you’re getting a voicey third from Sammy, the protagonist. I supplemented the attitude with interstitials between chapters and sections, a paragraph from any individual who’s exterior of the household who would say—in third particular person—their perspective on a second of interplay with the household. It’s completely doable to do all this stuff in numerous factors of view, whether or not third or first. 

With Cease Me if You’ve Heard This One, it needed to be by interactions with others, but in addition possibly Cherry says one thing so strongly that you just’re like, Hey, wait a minute. What does this really imply? Is the joke masking up one thing else? Or are you waxing philosophical about clowning as a solution to not discuss this different factor? I really feel like that’s probably the most thrilling half about writing one thing: uncovering the methods the particular person is mendacity to themselves or not telling the entire reality.

Could 2025